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Joined: Oct 12, 2003 Posts: 392 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
Damn, Nandor didn't get in Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:28 pm
Well today with the final election result we see that Nandor did not get back in to parliament. What a bummer!
I was surprised and dissapointed to see that the greens got less votes than in the previous 2 elections. Where the hell were all the green voters? Looking at the way society is headed, with imminent energy crisis, major environmental problems (global warming, corporations wanting to expand exploitation of NZ's natural resources, etc), and continued cannabis prohibition, I thought that way more people would have been moved to vote for greens.
Part of the problem I have noticed is that many people didn't understand MMP properly. A lot of voters I talked to before the election, who I had known previously to be green supporters, when I told them I was voting Green they were like 'no you can't!, labour needs votes!'. I think a lot of former green voters switched to labour. What people did not realise is that with the greens being a major potential coalition partner a vote for them is essentially a vote for a labour led government. And the more green representation the better.
Of course there is the argument that the race was very close between labour and national and if national had secured the majority then labour would not have gotten the support of NZ first and United Future (Both of which suck anyway). I do understand that argument to an extent but I think it is a pity that the greens polled so low in the end.
Having Nandor in parliament was a major asset to the cannabis law reform movement. Without him in there we are going to need to be extra vigilent in keeping this issue alive and pressing other green party members to keep pushing it in the house.
Joined: Jul 17, 2003 Posts: 19 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:25 pm
Yeah I just came back on to say i'm gutted that Nandor didn't get back into parliment, he was after alla real face representative of real people in New Zealand.
Joined: Feb 23, 2003 Posts: 282 Location: Pt Chev, Auckland
Nandor will be back Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:36 pm
steveoh wrote:
Bumma he misses out on his pension.
Not necessarily Steveoh, Nandor might be re-elected in 2008!!!
Also, I said to Keith Locke at the Auckland Greens election results party that he would get his third term perks now. He said, very quickly, oh no they've taken all that away now. So I don't know what the situation is now, what if if anything an MP gets for serving a full three terms.
I wonder what Nandor will do now?
He'll certainly have plenty of time to drive the NORML cann-a-bus on its maiden tour of NZ. And, perhaps he could get his old job back - editor of NORML news!
I have just come home from a meeting of about 20 medical cannabis users and a couple of Doctors.
Those that voted with cannabis legislation as the main motivator did not vote greens this time but ALCP just to send a message that this is an important topic and more than Just Steveoh wants it off the criminal screen.
The greens showed how much priority they gave it by giving Nandor a hospital pass list position and other aganda members above him.
As well as far as the medical users are concerned the Greens could have at least progressed this and got results if they had wanted to and Nandor in particular could have done more in this direction .
I think the numbers of ALCP votes did send a message.
Sorry , but the Greens let the medical users down rather badly.
Looks like we are still in the clutches of Dunny and Jimbo , who will contiue to block any positive moves , The toothless greens without Nandor to at least try , the Moari party ... well enough said. and Peters who will take a do nothing stance as usual.
So unless we get a pro Minister Of Health or Annette keeps it and has a huge increase of intestinal fortitude and lets medical not political factors rule we are still in the shit.
Joined: Oct 12, 2003 Posts: 392 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:40 pm
Yeah, I bet it really helped those medical users out to vote ALCP instead of Green!
I don't see why so many ALCP supporters always whine about how the greens drugs policies don't go far enough etc. I heard a lot of negative comments about Nandors bill from ALCP supporters. What people need to realise is that there is the ideal world that exists in your head and then there is the real world in which things actually happen. Nandor admitted himself that he would have liked his bill to go further. But after spending 6 years in parliament and checking out the situation he came to know how far he could realistically push the issue at this present point in time.
To be honest I think it is kind of lame when ALCP supporters slag off the greens. Sure, it is true that the greens policies on the issue could be more 'staunch'. But they are trying to be a serious political party that can actually have an influence on our country.
What would you rather have - staunch, uncompromising policies that have little to no effect in the real world of politics (ALCP), or realistic, albeit slightly compromised policies that actually have a real shot at improving the situation at least a little bit (ie removing criminality of cannabis) (the greens).
Sorry I am just a little frustrated to know that if even 1/4 of the folks who voted for ALCP had voted for the greens instead, Nandor would be in parliament right now and we'd be on the road to decriminalisation. But now he is turfed out and his bill gets taken out of the hat.
Yeah, I bet it really helped those medical users out to vote ALCP instead of Green!
Your dead right , from a political point of view, if one was a green supporter it may not have been sensible but lets face that was not the intent.
Most medical users are aware that it is only flimsy political policy that still dictates we are criminals.
To those of us who use medical cannabis as a last resort medication only unfortunately had this in mind when we voted , rather blinded by self interest , I confess.
The greens had not done us justice ... true , so completely independantly we seemed to at the last minute to up the ALCP numbers in hope to show the other parties it may be a vote block worth attacking next time , or maybe out of frustration like i did.
tony.
Joined: Oct 12, 2003 Posts: 392 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:48 pm
OK so if you're going by the reasoning that voting for ALCP 'sends a message' to politicians, does that mean that politicians should take 14,210 votes for Destiny NZ to mean that we should adopt more delusional religious right policies? It is nearly 3 times more than ALCP after all.
rather be dread than dead. Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:24 pm
bummer that nandors gone. the battle is even more uphill now.
his bill should still stay in the ballot tho'.
mp's mass superannuation has been removed [or at least that's what nandor told me], so that 3 term thing doesn't apply anymore.
my opinion is that it's time for the grassroots to rark it up- but considering that i'm already in contact with 2 of the people posting to this particular forum thread- the grassroots must be rarking it already!
please don't diss nandor. the brother is on our side and needs our support. sometimes i think he gets a harder time from cannabis users than he gets from peter dunne.
remember who your allies are and remember that 'divide and conquer' is an effective strategy to grind cannabis law reformers down.
Before the finger gets pointed at those who I admit rather illogically ( me included) voted ALCP ( I also got swayed at the last minute to support Steveoh ).
IT was not us who demoted nandor and made him vunerable , this also did not edere us to the greens , its howed that thier priorities differed from ours..
If I had my vote over again knowing what i know know , and was not having a bad pain day and frustrated beyond
reason , I would have voted differently , but 20 20 hind sight is not one of my many attributes.
Anyway I bribed , seduced , conned intimidated enough friends and family to vote green to support my cause , I forgive me me for my one lapse. A far less devestting vote effect that the team who did the Greens list order.
I bet if nandor had not been shunned and the cannbis cause not degraded by the Greens they would have got at least another 2.3% and had more than nandor in..
Anyway do not discount nandor being in the house by christmas. That will qualify as a reason to all gather at Albert park HS box ( or other) and i will beg forgivness in person.
tony
A sometime stupid and often frustrated and usually desperate but still living in hope on medical dope.
i just don't like people getting down on nandor for not doing enough. none of us, as individuals, can ever do enough.... o believe me i've tried!...still am.
nandor being out of parliament has come as a great shock to all of us, and that there will be much 'therapeutic' discussion about this over weeks and months and years to come...
at least brash isn't vice president of the united states of australasia.
Some interesting Comments here. I too beleive in full legalisation and regulation. However as per the handle I'm also a realist. (Despite the fact that I'm in the final stages of a discussion paper proposing a regulatory regime for cannabis under the prposed "d" classification under the Misuse of Drugs act) The reality of conservative NZ is that legalisation will only occur after decriminalisation. Conservative middle class housewives across the nation will only accept legalisation and regulation once they realise its not going to lead to a massive increase in children consuming pot, and people going schizo in the streets. The science tells us that this wont happen, but if laws were based on science weed would never have been made illegal in the first place.
With regards to ALCP and the Greens, I think the best possible thing that ALCP could do would be to affiliate with the Greens at election time. I do believe that ALCP has an important role to play in terms of pushing for full legalisation and Regulation, which the Greens are too mainstream to support. But better dsialogue between the greens and ALCP and afiliation at voting time would benefit the cause for all - on the basis the decriminalisation is the first step in a long process to get to where things should be - legalised and regulated in the same way alcohol and tobacco is. ALCP needs to stay separate and keep to its agenda, but if ALCP voters has voted for Greens then we would have have Nandor and probably 1 more green MP.
With Nandor out its unlikely that there will be a bill before Parliament this term to decriminalise cannabis. Therefore we have actually lost a chance to have this bill bought in front of Parliament this term, which front what I understand Nandor intended to bring shortly after the election had he been reelected.
Thats saifd the fight still goes on. I hope to complete my paper shortly and with Any luck I might get to post it here!
Joined: Feb 19, 2004 Posts: 1374 Location: Nelson area
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:40 pm
Hey guys am I missing something here, or are you?
This bill you all keep talking about , it's not the one Nandor placed in the members ballot just recently?
Coz if it is, then it's like lotto, it has to picked (any one know the odds?). Then it will be only dealt with as a conscious vote. Are you telling me that the pot heads of New Zealand are going to rally together and lobby enough politicians to get the bill passed?
And you all are going on about not dissin Nandor. But hey don't diss the people who felt strongly enough about legalisation to vote for it. 10 points I say.
Why don't NORML members start circulating a petition calling for a binding referendum in the 2008 election. That's got to be better than sitting on your arse bitching about who was responsible for Nandor loosing his seat.
Steveoh _________________ Regulation will set cannabis free
Joined: Oct 12, 2003 Posts: 392 Location: Otepoti, Te Wai Pounamu
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:25 pm
You have a point steveoh. I support the views of ALCP, even if they are 'ever so slightly' unrealistic. I don't blame ALCP voters for the greens poor result this time around...there must have been way more than 5000 greens supporters who simply didn't get their arses down to the booth on polling day.
I was told that Nandors bill would be removed from the 'hat' now that he's no longer an MP...or does it not? If it doesn't get removed, then thats pretty good.
Indeed we need to keep on going. We need to lobby MP's, especially if the bill does come before the house. How many signatures are needed for a referendum? I remember back a few months ago when those folks were trying to do that one about changing the NZ flag...they went hard but they had to bail in the end cause they didn't get enough signatures. Then again that was not a particularly important thing they were going for. Perhaps it'd be easier to get signatures for law reform.
If we were to do something like that we would want to make sure that it was the right time to do it...cause if there was not enough support for it come referendum time then its unlikely it'd be done again for a long time.
But hey if this bill does go through maybe there'll be no need for a referendum.
I tried to get petition together last year to present to the Director Of Procceding Human Rights , I was required to produce evidence of quantity of support for medical cannabis use.
It had to contain Name , address , signiture and dated , that were verifiable.
I did not know there were so many reasons even desperate people give to avoid identification, this same fear will prevail even when trying to put together a general petition.
In my case it was people who use or would use cannabis medically so it may be different but for it to be usable it has to have checkable names..
This is of course is part of and will continue to be an ongoing problem.
The more conservative users (as well many active people) fear the wrath of the law , the high incidents of cannabis arrests and the lengths the police have gone to , why give them a signed admission.
And I did put a request out for support on this list to no avail.
As a result I was unable to offer evidence of a substantial number of people effected in an application under part 1a of the HRA , and seeking a tribunal hearing.Trust me I tried a few hundred signitures would have saved me a potential $40,000 , the cost to procced independantly , if that is the only way.
But all is not lost , Canada may be opening doors for us , if the phone call I had this morning is anything to go by...Cannabis is sweeping the land , its becoming the fashion medication , the majic bullet , the cure all , half the Doctors are raving about it the other half too stoned to. And its raw leaf not the GW that is winning the battle. That means it is incredibly cost effective , no drug companies .
I hear Doctors are suggesting it for head aches instead of asprin it has been so normalised ...All because they introduced a man made High THC from a drug company legal for medical use that was NBG , A total disaster , so the allowed raw leaf on a temp basis BEFORE the Satvix(GW) was available so a lot of people were able to compair. It seems even the Doctors are accepting raw leaf is best and affordable.
This is of course part of the reason Emery is getting it from the States but it may all be too late..Canada might just do it..
Joined: Feb 19, 2004 Posts: 1374 Location: Nelson area
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:20 am
That's why making a statement at the polling booth is the safest way to send a message (petition) imagine if all those smokers who vote Green, as it seemed the sensible way(?) gave their party vote to ALCP and they got a person in government. That alone would have been one hell of a statement, the media would have run with that!
Steveoh _________________ Regulation will set cannabis free
I voted labour rather than greens cos i didnt want national to get into power but so saddened to see nandor out, hes a legend so it really sux hes gone.
[quote="MrNiceGuyNZ"]Like Tony, I am a medical marijuanna user. There is no way I would put my name address and verification on a petition, as tony said it would be an invite for the police to give you a conviction.
I am just firming up a legal opinion but it looks like our next move is to put in place a document that asks the questions regards personal cannabis use and outcomes.
The forms would be filled out with your GP or specialist ,who , we hope can certify and submit to a central moderator possibly medsafe. and are not able to be compelled to disclose identity.
This does two things it give one the oppitunity to educate medico's and secondly to form a powerful and factual information base to counter the BS that is relied on now.
As I said the movements in Canada are more exciting , its the medical fraternity that seem to be driving it.
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